Dear intarwebs
May. 23rd, 2007 07:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
trixtahCan we pleeeease stop with the knee-jerk posts/comments from bigoted lesbians who seem to feel the need to define people's sexual identities for them? FFS. I thought that died off in the 80s except for the real old skool types - it unfortunately seems to be undergoing a lovely resurgence
I suppose I'm a tad oversensitised from last week, when I was informed, by several, that I'm "really" bi. Let's see, I've had 24 shags with men in total (not men, shags). No relationships with any of them. I've had about a dozen significant relationships with women, and, hm, 20 years x an average of one shag a week = 1040 girlie shags (wild guesstimate - I tend to have peaks and troughs). Ok, so to date, I'm 2.2% bi. How many of these twoo lesbians are that "bi" as well, do you reckon? Especially the ones who had tarnished themselves with evul mangerms before they Saw The Light and who have only been out for five minutes (comparatively).
Anyways, that's all bullshit. More serious point, I'm surely not the only one who thinks that by IDing as bi (or any sexual identity), you're actually advertising what you're open to (as well as your general history). Aren't you?
I suppose I'm a tad oversensitised from last week, when I was informed, by several, that I'm "really" bi. Let's see, I've had 24 shags with men in total (not men, shags). No relationships with any of them. I've had about a dozen significant relationships with women, and, hm, 20 years x an average of one shag a week = 1040 girlie shags (wild guesstimate - I tend to have peaks and troughs). Ok, so to date, I'm 2.2% bi. How many of these twoo lesbians are that "bi" as well, do you reckon? Especially the ones who had tarnished themselves with evul mangerms before they Saw The Light and who have only been out for five minutes (comparatively).
Anyways, that's all bullshit. More serious point, I'm surely not the only one who thinks that by IDing as bi (or any sexual identity), you're actually advertising what you're open to (as well as your general history). Aren't you?
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:03 am (UTC)When you have a)known me for at least a year, b)read and UNDERSTOOD the whole Judith Butler ouevre, c)lived and functioned within a reasonably large community of straights, gays and the continuum thereof and, d) are a polite person with respect for others' identity, then you may offer your opinion as to whether or not my self-identification seems correct to you or not.
In any event, I reserve the right to not give a flying fuck about your dumbarse opinion.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:17 am (UTC)Perfect!
Damn, I wish I could iconify that little number. :-D
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:35 am (UTC):-D
JUDITH BUTLER PWNS YU
Date: 2007-05-23 12:59 pm (UTC)Re: JUDITH BUTLER PWNS YU
Date: 2007-05-23 01:22 pm (UTC)Dear fucking god, that nearly gave me an aneurysm. Perfect timing, FTW!
Re: JUDITH BUTLER PWNS YU
Date: 2007-05-23 01:35 pm (UTC)GOD IS DED
LOL
Re: JUDITH BUTLER PWNS YU
Date: 2007-05-23 01:38 pm (UTC)I'm trying to come up with kitteh Sartre. "Beans and Nofuzzinesses" isn't quite right.
Re: JUDITH BUTLER PWNS YU
Date: 2007-05-23 10:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:07 am (UTC)Had a wonderful debate with my girlfriend but I think we made ourselves cross eyed and were acctually 'arguing' for the same side. Neither of us are grand debaters.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:21 am (UTC)I just hope those people who think labels == whole truth come across some nice situation that makes them think twice. Of course, that type often end up denying the grey area, or avoiding the situation. Bah.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 02:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:48 am (UTC)I just think I didn't accept soon enough that I was attracted to women. But then for years I thought it made me a lesbian, and to paraphrase a certain comic, I like dick too much for that.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:02 am (UTC)Heh, and that's one of the things about the "choosing sides" malarkey that can make many many people so slow to realise their bi-ness. I'm almost willing to take bets that some of these women who are racing out to define me are going to be doing some self re-assessment on their own behalfs in years to come.
I would say that majorly liking dick does put a wee spanner into the lesbo self-identity works though. ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:55 am (UTC)If I say I am bi, it doesn't really tell you what I'm open to. A man might reasonably infer that I'm into shagging men, but most would be unlikely to consider that perhaps the only shagging on the table might be BOB. Likewise if I say I am a lesbian, although lesbian at least gives an idea what is not going to be on the table (maybe).
Anyone who is busy drawing arbitrary lines on the internet is not worth your time. I understand that if they catch you at the wrong moment they can annoy the bejeezus out of you, but women making those statements want a fight in my experience. I don't like to reinforce their drama llama first-year feminist behaviour by giving them one.
Worst thing about the sex wars was the way it sucked up vast amounts of energy that could have been spent on fighting the real fuckers. I could never quite shake the feeling that right wing pale males must find this "lesbian/bi cat fight!" stuff intensely entertaining.
One thing will do is claim what I'd call my "heritage". I was booted from home for being in a relationship with a woman, and I spent a lot of time in collectives, working phone lines, doing poster runs, organising workshops and participating in demos. If some idiot thinks my long hair, skirts and being in a relationship with an mtf magically takes away that lesbian feminist heritage the mistake is definitely theirs. Likewise for any of my peers who did all that and now find themselves with men. Ultimately what should matter is your track record in life, not your track record in bed.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:07 am (UTC)I don't know why it's bugging me so much right now - I normally avoid these sorts of discussions myself (unless to provide some balance if it's wildly bugging me). Yeah, I'm sure those fundamentalist wanks on the other side just love pointing their fingers and sniggering at leftie/sexual minority infighting.
However, I think you've exactly put your finger on the aspect that feels very personal and is the most annoying part - denial of that heritage and history, and the refusal to look at our life track records.
Bloody nicely encapsulated. :-D
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:00 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:07 am (UTC)I'm contaminated for liiiife! OH NOES!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:03 am (UTC)And, in this instance, hysterically funny. I wish I'd kept track so I could tell what my percentage is.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:10 am (UTC)Yes, I crack myself up too. I thought 2.2% is quite respectable, actually.
And, you know, isn't it really precious that I can quite clearly remember each and every one of those boy-shags? I can't clearly remember each and every one of those women I've shagged! Ack! I have no respect for my Sistahs!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:19 am (UTC)On account of how so often I haven't gotten any to begin with. RUDE SMIRKING GOES HERE.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 11:30 am (UTC)As for the disgusting h0rness of not even getting all your shags' names and appreciating their special snowflakeness, I am speechless. I mean, are you sure you're not a man? Or want to be one? SMIRKING IS MALE-IDENTIFIED!!1!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:31 pm (UTC)Wait! Snorting, macho competition is also male oriented! But I'm NOT transitioning! OH GOD WHAT IS MY LABEL NOW I AM LOST etc.etc.etc. grand guignol.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 09:48 pm (UTC):o)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 10:26 pm (UTC)... no but seriously, I could put one somewhere really hidden, like my inner ankle where it gets covered by bike socks.
I've heard it's Gold stars for Unschtupped-By-Man now, anyway. From someone charmingly (scream).
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 01:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 02:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 02:11 pm (UTC)everyone's snarked it well already, i think!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 02:14 pm (UTC)That was my final ventage, I think. No more on this topic! (Till next time)
;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 04:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 12:57 pm (UTC);-)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 03:07 pm (UTC)Just ignore her, she's a dick.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 12:37 pm (UTC)Anyways, she came back earlier with some incredibly lame riposte, so I've decided to stop feeding the troll. What a twit.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 03:53 pm (UTC)This school of thought goes as follows:
If you're bio-female and it comes out that you have ever slept with even one man, you get drummed out of the Dyke Club and your membership card and secret decoder ring are confiscated.
But if you're bio-male and if at any time in your life you ever kiss a guy, you're queer forever.
And no, it has not escaped my attention that many of the people who appear to cleave to this theory have themselves engaged in the occasional bout of boykissing. But then, I'm also on record as recognizing the truly breathtaking levels of hypocrisy that humans commonly engage in when dealing with matters sexual.
And yes, regardless of what one's occasional (or even general) behavior might be behind closed doors, one's *public* presentation of identity DOES serve as an advertisement as to what one is open to. Certainly *I* use it that way, and am not averse to changing how I identify depending on what/how I'm trying to advertise. (It's apparently quite amusing to watch all the little--and not-so-little--shifts in my appearance and behavior when I'm flirting "straight" and then a cute gayboy catches my eye *g*.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 04:19 pm (UTC)i think some of the subconscious simplistic reasoning is that boys "contaminate" one cos they "give", girls can only "receive", therefore they don't really confer a changed status on a person.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 12:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-23 05:48 pm (UTC)Oddly, and this is where it gets All About Me, I've spent the last year or two coming out as bi again. Precisely because I am open to relationships/sex with either women or men, and want to advertise this. I stopped IDing as bi about a decade ago when my then rship became exclusive. Not so much because I didn't want to advertise, but because I felt like a wanker if I proclaimed myself to be bi and queer and etc. when enjoying all the social/legal privileges of a heteronormative relationship. I'm now sort of convinced that it's worth IDing as bi even if I never have sex with women again (not that I want to jinx anything), because of the people who go around claiming that no one is really bi, we are either gay or straight, and bi is just indecision.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 12:53 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly.
That's interesting about not willing to claim bi or queer identity while in a long-term straight relationship. I could understand it if you were entirely sure you were not going to get into a queer situation again. But I don't consider that particular set of labels as being about denying (or claiming) privilege - as well as the advertising thing, they encompass one's personal history, and the possibilities one is open to. Privilege isn't a quality that belongs to a label, but is part of a situation (which one applies a label to, of course). Or so it seems to me.
The reasons you mention for claiming the bi label now are exactly the ones I think are important - that otherwise idiots will claim it doesn't "really" exist.
Also, from my personal perspective, I had one ex g/f who went through a phase of saying she didn't ID as bi/queer - she's married now. It felt like a betrayal of me, actually, and her own history - it was much more traumatic than our actual relationship breakup. She's cool with claiming her queerness now, even though she and her bloke are in for the long haul. So, yes, she is living a nice middle-class married life with kids - but she could still be judged on her history (and potential future if the unexpected should happen) - so the privilege set is not seamless. I like the fact that someone who appears to be a stereotype is quietly (and not-so, at times) subverting it in various ways. Also, she still looks bloody cute stomping around in her Blunnies. :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 01:27 pm (UTC)By the time that relationship became exclusive, I didn't really consider getting sexual with anyone but my partner ever again. Which was a strategy for coping with the long term relationship status; acting as if it were forever, so that I wouldn't hold back or second guess myself.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 12:53 am (UTC)I always thought Tolkien's idea of Ent names to be very interesting. Their names are as long as their lives and are always growing.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-24 12:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-27 03:09 pm (UTC)I'm adding you, by the way. Why haven't I done it until now? We have a whole lot in common, apparently, as long as we don't start talking medicine.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-27 11:40 pm (UTC)Hah, I was going to add you a few weeks back, and neglected to for some reason. Yay initiative.
As for not talking medicine, why not? While I'm one of those witchdoctory homeopaths, I'm not one of those who believes that there is no value in modern medicine. Quite the contrary.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-28 07:51 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-27 11:55 pm (UTC)Also, the fem dyke babes must get pissed off! :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-28 07:34 am (UTC)So, I've decided what to say if someone asks. (Why does nobody ask? I want to tell them!) "My gender identity is not 'woman', it's 'butch dyke'. I still like men, but that's a side issue." Which has the advantage of being a pun, since "side issue" is called "bisak".
When it comes to the butch women in general society, I can't recall a name for them. Sure, "man" or "male" is sometimes used as a slur, and so's "dyke", but as long as they do their job well, I don't think anyone says anything about their gender identity that's not outright an insult.